Interview With John West
And, how he founded the greatest Karaoke company in the world.
Hi John, where do you come from, where you born?
I come from the industrial north of England, Born in Blackburn.
You just told me that when it snowed up there, the snow turned black!
Yes, back in the day Blackburn was the world capital of the cotton industry because the environment is pretty harsh and very damp, and cotton needed to be kept in a damp state which made it good for spinning.
The spinning and all the industrialisation and mechanisation was built around the cotton industry. All the cotton factories and mills, had great big chimney stacks hence the pollution.
Interesting, I didn’t know about that.
We can get to the Karaoke bit later, but you told that you and Doug Styles bought BLUE HEAVEN in Esbjerg, Denmark? What is the story behind that?
Well Doug was working as a DJ obviously for Gerry Coard, your competitor, he managed to work his way into managing a night club called TARANTELLA in Skien, Norway, he then ended up buying one of the old IDEA gigs, Chinatown in Skien. When he took it over he asked me to be the DJ there. That led us to start a small entertainment agency where we brought lookalikes/soundalike artists and dance troupes from the U.K. Pans People type dancers and sold these shows to clubs in Norway.
I never even heard about this…
Yes, I think it was Bim Bollen who replaced me some years later, or whenever I left.
When was this?
It must have been about 84 or 85. It was quite successful and a lot of fun. So, then Doug, who was together with a Danish girl - don’t know quite what happened in Skien - decided to relocate to Esbjerg. BLUE HEAVEN was quite a legendary club back in the 70s and 80s. Doug called me one day and asked me if I would be interested in coming in with me taking over BLUE HEAVEN in Esbjerg? I thought it was a nice challenge and so off I went, we took over the place and renamed it BOGARTS. It didn’t quite work out, but we made a good fist of it for a while.
So to bridge the gap between BLUE HEAVEN and…. this is so noisy here!
(Deafening roar of a lorry thundering past) whilst we are recording this in The Lanes, Brighton, hence the noise on a hot summer Friday Night……So to bridge the gap to Karaoke, where did you first see it and how did it all start? When did you first see Karaoke and recognise it would be the next big thing and that you wanted to be part of it?
Right so, BLUE HEAVEN or BOGARTS as it was named, failed, and I left there with about 15 kroner (under £2). I was with my new Danish model girlfriend at that time, not the best start to the relationship! The only thing I could do was to DJ again. I knew John Gee from NorBooking so I called him, I was desperate and broke in Denmark, I said, can you get me a gig anywhere, I need to work. Yes, he said, I can send you to Horten in Norway, a new club called LACE which turned out to be amazing. My girlfriend was working internationally at that time so she was in and out of Scandinavia and working mostly in London. We thought it might be a good idea to bring some of the clothing back that she was modelling from London to Oslo where I had moved on to a residency at the SAS Hotel nightclub “Galaxy”, so as a sideline, each time she came back from London she brought new clothes that we started selling quite successfully for good money.
That got me back on my feet financially and the guy she was working regularly for in London ultimately became my partner in the karaoke business, which I will explain more of later! My Oslo residency was through a Norwegian Agent, namely Eivind Solberg. One day I went into his office, and he had a laser disc karaoke system there, the first I had ever seen. I had used laser disc player in clubs to play music videos, but apparently this player sings to you! I thought it maybe a language difficulty the way he explained it?
We have one in a bar in Oslo, go and see it if you want, he said, I don’t know what to do with it. It’s made by PIONEER, I am a PIONEER agent, and they want me to sell it but don’t know if I can. I went to the bar and saw how it worked and thought it was amazing! People were singing with it and in all places - Norway! You don’t normally associate Norwegians with outgoing personalities! I thought if you put this in flight-cases, based on mobile discos, and went round the places I worked in Norway I am pretty sure I could sell it. The morning after, I went back to Eivind Solberg and said I think I can do something with this equipment. And, he said, ‘Brilliant, do you want to buy it?’ ‘No’ I replied ‘I’ll rent it off you, I think I can bring you in some business’. So, I rented it off him, put it in flight cases, called up a lot of venues around Norway that I had played in and charged them quite a lot of money, similar to what a band would cost them, and it worked, within three months I had three different karaoke shows touring Norway.
The tracks that were sent, did they have the text underneath?
Yes, Pioneer were great, they brought that concept to Europe but with a very Japanese spin.
My first concept of Karaoke was a news item I saw, about the latest trend from Tokyo featuring stressed out executives in some back street bar singing “MY WAY” into a microphone, as a form of therapy, certainly not entertainment. Dreadful sound, and this was how Japanese businessmen de-stressed.
That’s not far removed with Japan being such a conservative society, this is why they had these private rooms, with volume levels quite low and not to bring attention to themselves. In the west, it’s the opposite! Over there it was quite twee, you had no lights on you, pretty low-key, a kind of anonymous experience really. You had a wireless microphone which is handed round the table with no focus on the person singing at all!
So, this was the start of it, how did SUNFLY get started?
Well I was doing shows with the PIONEER equipment and the Pioneer songs which were made in Japan - they had ‘Michelle, my belle’, Carpenters “Every Sha la la la”, nice, pleasant non offensive kind of melodies, and whilst I was doing shows in Scandinavia, I thought what if we had Guns & Roses, Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins etc, who were massive stars at the time, to use on the shows, that’s what was being played in all the bars and night clubs? Unfortunately, those songs were not available, so I started making enquiries on how I could do this with the music publishers. This proved to be very difficult, also I would have to use the laserdisc format if I was going to produce, and laserdiscs were only made in Japan - apart from one other place - Blackburn, Lancashire where I came from! Amazingly Blackburn had a Philips factory who had just created a laserdisc manufacturing plant there, which was kind of bizarre and fortuitous too!
I had a breakthrough on getting licenses with the songs I thought would work. All I needed was to make the music videos and record the soundtracks! I discussed my ideas with the guy in London who my girlfriend modelled for, as I remember him telling me his brother was a video cameraman and I needed a cameraman! We had a mutual friend whom I had met a couple of times, who was a genius musician for Phil Collins and Mike and the Mechanics and I needed a music producer! So, we got together and formed a partnership in what became SUNFLY, and we made a lot of amazing soundtracks and videos. The music producer who was doing all our production knew a lot of major league rock stars and he got them in playing guitars, drums, etc and doing all kinds of backing vocals and he then did the mastering.
All the backing tracks had to be original! And did you own all the recordings?
Yes. And because of our very good and prominent connection with Genesis and Phil Collins we ended up doing all the mastering in Genesis’s studio which was absolutely state of the art! One of of the things the producer said when comparing the mastering on Pioneer laserdisc productions, was that they were audio mastered at a very low level (8-bit ) but we could redline our productions and go (16-bit) take the volume all the way up, so when they played a Sunfly produced song compared with a Pioneer song the Sunfly quality and value of the new songs would be significantly better. That became the power of SUNFLY and what helped build the brand and reputation.
So, this was the 90s? You were the King of Karaoke and had the world market?
Yes, beginning 91, 92. Not only did we have the market, but we also had the licences which most of our competitors didn’t have. Many competitors were cowboys from the off, but Sunfly paid significant royalties to do it right and stay onside with the publishers, which is why we are still alive today!
I do remember you telling me once, that apart from your fabulous success in the 90s. along came the piracy
Yes, the format changed. It was called CD +G (cd plus graphic) no video. Not many people could make video because it was very, very expensive to produce. CD + G arrived, it was just a black background on a CD with lyrics. That made it easy for pirates to produce and that compromised Sunfly significantly. Having said that, we just increased our production output during those times and whilst it hit us in one way, we took advantage in another way, we knew how to produce, we had the brand; we had the reputation, and by upping the production it actually increased our presence worldwide and increased the number of songs in our catalogue as we didn’t have to wait for our songs to be made on laserdisc, which took up to 3 months to make 15 songs! With the CDG format we could make two to three hundred tracks per month on that format and get it out to market very quickly.
How many new songs are you doing a month now?
At the moment now as we’ve got a joint venture with another company in Holland, called SUNVIG and between the two companies we are producing 200/300 songs each month. We are particularly focusing on making them in several languages including Arabic, Japanese, Korean and several as well as our mainstream U.S/U.K. productions.
You are an ideas person, where did you get the idea of making Karaoke cabins to Karaoke rooms?
And so successfully.
I saw some rooms in Japan back in the day and got approached by a company called LUCKY VOICE.
(Incidentally, John and I met for this interview in Lucky Voice, Brighton) who were owned by Martha Lane Fox who sold out her business lastminute.com for close to a billion dollars. That business meant she was often in Japan where she had seen how private karaoke rooms worked over there and brought that idea back to the U.K. in 2006 and started Lucky Voice. Now most cities have these rooms, not only in the U.K. but all over Europe and U.S.A.
By 2010 I was thinking I wanted to open private rooms using the Sunfly brand. I was working on doing this in Copenhagen, unfortunately that fell through at the last minute, however an opportunity came up in Oslo with an old colleague so I committed to invest in a bar in Oslo with the sole intention of creating private karaoke rooms and we established the Brighton Pub. I lost my nerve with the rooms concept though, what if I built the rooms and nobody came, with the costs and the rents at Oslo prices, I kind of bottled it. Yes, we did build a bar it but instead of it becoming an out and out private room karaoke venue it became a daytime bar (karaoke bar at nighttime) with a night club & DJ downstairs. After running that for 7 years, our landlords wanted to take back the property and compensated us for our investment. That was in 2017.
Just before COVID broke out in late 2019, I got a visit from a company from Holland called VIGO ENTERTAINMENT. They were quite a small company, but the guy who owned it was pretty innovative and sharp. We were discussing all things karaoke, I mentioned that I had seen these Karaoke cabins in China that were unique, and that I was considering creating a Sunfly version of them. They look very similar to telephone boxes, except with two seats in them and a built in karaoke system. I thought there could be good business to be had for them in Europe if we could place them in family entertainment centres, shopping malls airports, etc. Just as he was leaving I showed him a picture of these cabins from China, he started laughing and I said, what’s funny? He got out his phone and he said I am also interested in this concept and showed me a picture of a similar cabin already in his warehouse in Holland! However, he continued, the quality, the build and everything about it would never meet the safety or insurance requirements of the EU. I said if you are as interested as I am, we could maybe design and manufacture our own cabins. A couple of weeks later he called me and said he knew of a metal factory that produce all kinds of things out of metal, juke boxes, slot machines and so on, they think they can make this type of cabin. We came up with a design and eventually created a safe and unique product, and formed a joint venture company between Sunfly Karaoke and Vigo Entertainment and SUNVIG was born in 2019!
Are these cabins operating anywhere?
Yes, in Holland they are, however the COVID pandemic prevented us going to other markets.
In Amsterdam, there is even a customised Karaoke private coach service. Sing your heart out and see the sights!
During COVID lockdown, SUNVIG, decided not only manufacture cabins but to use the resources and innovations we had created to create a turnkey solution to create bespoke private karaoke rooms. This we developed very successfully and we are now probably world leaders with this concept.
As you said every pub has some storeroom they don’t use…and every hotel room has to earn a certain amount of money. With your approach, you show them that your Karaoke room concept can make them great profits, how do you convince management they can make better money?
They make their money by us refitting a room or rooms and installing our karaoke systems. We create a cool intimate place, a totally private room where, depending on size you can seat six, eight, ten or twelve people or more in them. The rooms are sold as an experience, which they certainly are complete with a self service karaoke system, nice furnishings, great audio visuals, even a call button that will call the waiter to come and serve drinks. The business model comes from each person paying on average £10, £12 or £15 per hour with a minimum room hire of two hours, for their own private karaoke party, (Typically, 8 guests for those two hours at £12 per hour returns £196 per room to the Hotel/Venue/Bar plus drinks - and those room(s) are likely to be booked for several hours a day. The clientele are usually groups of friends, families, work colleagues, and create a very intimate experience, and now with public awareness of things like COVID these rooms provide a safe and fun environment in the company of people that you know.
All the rooms are cleaned after each session, even the microphone have hygienic disposable covers on them.
You are going to leisure centres, resorts, cruise ships and with your performance data and corporate videos you say you can turn rooms into a highly profitable money-making business and it is growing in popularity. I believe you have just got into Richard Branson’s cruise ships.
Yes, we have the SCARLET LADY, and VALIANT LADY the new Virgin Cruise Ships, as well as other major cruise lines including Disney!
You must have felt, well, that’s it. I’ve made it now.
It wasn’t that easy, I had to go to Florida to learn the security protocols that have to be followed very strictly. Everything has to be supervised and done in accordance with the cruise companies security. We have other major cruise lines wanting our systems, we are the first in the world to install our systems onto a private jet, in doing so we had to create a whole new system for private jets to comply with aviation regulations! We’ve even done a bus that tours around where you can sing, drink and see the sights at the same time. Like a hop on hop off attraction. A sightseeing bar with karaoke (see picture)!
When I started with karaoke more than thirty years ago it was kind of embarrassing to be involved in it, there was no kudos in karaoke at all. Going from being an international DJ to fronting embryonic karaoke was the uncoolest thing ever.
When people did ask what I did back then, and I told them I own a Karaoke company, they generally tended to be dismissive and of the opinion was that it would never take off in the west, but gradually with the advent of show like POP IDOL, X-FACTOR, BRITAIN’S GOT TALENT etc, it suddenly started to gain credibility as a lot of the contestants came from karaoke bars.
It was still deemed little bit naff until perhaps the last five years, but it has now finally gained credibility as mainstream entertainment. You’ve got the movies, you’ve got the restaurants, you’ve got the Night Clubs and now you’ve got karaoke!
So here is the big question we all want to know, John, have you yourself been behind the microphone?
Oh yes, it’s not great. Some producers can’t sing so I class myself with them, but I have got good ears in terms of production values, in terms of singing, not the best!
I think this is a wonderful story and it is going to go in the book, THAT’S HOW IT WAS, but there is just one last question I think people would like to know. When we had a recent DJ Reunion back in March 22 you were down on the list to attend but suddenly you reported ‘Sorry guys, I can’t be with you, I have to be at the GRAMMY AWARDS in Los Angeles. So why did you have to go there?
Well, through the network of musicians I had met working with karaoke I got an unexpected invitation from Cristian Larrosa, of Larrosa Music Group to go to the Grammy’s and through his connections I got to know some very important musicians and producers over there including a 19 times Grammy winner, who has produced so many rock stars as well as many major Latin artists and actually attending both the Latin Grammy’s and the American Grammy’s and meeting some of the singers, musicians and producers over there that were heroes of mine was pretty amazing, some who have now become friends.
You also have quite an extensive publishing company too?
It was something I started as an offshoot of my karaoke business. I own Gung Ho Music Group Ltd, which is a music library that produces music for TV shows, movies, commercials etc.
Looking back, is there anything you regret?
Not really, no, I’ve got a lot to be thankful for. If I hadn’t taken that step from growing up in the north of England, where I was working in local government at the time, training as an accountant by day and deejaying by night. I got connected with IDEA and given the chance to be an international deejay which seemed very glamorous, and I jumped at the opportunity. My boss and chief accountant was horrified when I announced my career change and that I was going to work in a nightclub in Copenhagen. “What about your pension” he questioned (I was 20 years old) that was the clincher and removed any doubts about leaving, working 40 years to get a good pension or join IDEA!
Life is a journey not a destination!
Exactly, I found that out very quickly after I turning up up at my first venue working for you!
What is the most exciting thing you’ve ever done? What’s given you the biggest high?
There have been some pretty big highs on my journey, too many to mention in this interview, but having 3 beautiful daughters has been difficult to beat!